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shamanicshayminI wasn't going to post this on my journal because I'm worried about starting wank (which is JUST what I need. I'll vent some steam, only to have it blow up in my face), but I chatted a little with Sword, and well, since it's still stuck in my mind, I might as well share.
I want to smack almost everybody on this thread.
Just... the sheer fucking RAGE I feel. Several good points have been brought up (misandry does not exist in our society because we never oppressed men for periods of time for masculine traits, misogyny being the root of abuse towards men {they're "weak" or "not manly enough"}, women-only safe places should be for women only, men are NOT exploited through a woman's pregnancy, etc.) but ghsjkghdskjghkjdsgk. I won't discuss every little detail, but here's a few cents I'd like to drop on several comments.
What type of assault are these men you know terrified of reporting, exactly? Because in my world, *women* are terrified of reporting assault because they're not gonna be believed. And if they're terrified because they're gonna get called "weak"... well, news to you: that's misogyny! Basically, these men you know are terrified of being compared to women. I cry a river for them.
I don't know about you, but I find this a really fucking insensitive thing to say about male rape victims. The feelings that come in the aftermath of rape is a lot more complicated than that. What this paragraph reads like to me is, "Men are not oppressed like women, therefore it serves them right if they get raped/molested/abused and are not as important as female victims." FUCK THAT. Rape is bad for anyone, okay?
Male rape is seldom reported because of misogynistic beliefs (misogyny hurts men as well) and far more women are raped than men, and yet the conviction rates are appallingly low including for children.
The part I bolded may be true, but there's one little problem. Rape statistics are not fully accurate BECAUSE rape is under-reported, especially among men. I'm not saying male rape victims enormously dwarf female rape victims in reality, but the number would still be higher than what current surveys or statistics would tell us.
Being an immature asshole is perfectly okay because I'm not going to be ~nice~ or ~less angry~ or ~cuddly~ like the ebil menz expect me to!
Person: I'm fairly sure it's possible to be obviously righteously-angry and assertive without resorting to childish name-calling. There is a line.
Response: *keeps using the "Couldn't you be NICER about it and less angry and quieter and cuddlier and more silent and" icon*
Person: There is a difference between righteous rage and hurting your cause by making you seem just as hateful as the people you are combating.
Response: It's real cute that you seem to think being nice and polite will change things.
GOOD. FUCKING. LORD.
This is SUCH a black-and-white way of thinking. Have the responders considered that there's something called a middle ground? A color called gray? There is a huge fucking difference between being angry and being a childish dick. Being pissed off without resorting to prejudice and name-calling does NOT mean being ~nice~ and ~cuddly~ and willing to let privileged assholes rub their muddy boots in your face. While we're at it, politeness =/= doormat. Thank you very much.
Person: If you're talking about one individual who is doing something offensive, go nuts. Spewing invective referring to all men everywhere, or insulting a man who has not done anything except be a man, doesn't strike me as helpful.
Response: Oh you mean like men do? The whole "all women are sluts" and crap, and it's us that have to "play nice" when the male gender has spent most of human history pushing smaller groups over in the sandbox for their own profit/entertainment.
Annnnnnnnnnnd you're missing the point, responder. If someone's clearly being sexist/racist/homophobic/etc. and swears you out, it's okay to tell them what scumbags they are and call them out on their behavior. It's when you think, "Oh, you're a man/woman, therefore I have the right to treat you like shit even though you haven't said anything bad to me or to anyone else" that's not okay.
I'm pretty fucking sick of hearing all this whinging about how all men aren't like that!! So what? All men benefit from women's oppression, which means that even the men who aren't knowing participants in oppression generally don't feel compelled to try and stop oppression.
Do I have to say what's wrong with that last sentence? A woman that's influenced by misogynistic beliefs and exploits them to oppress other women is just as bad as your oblivious naive white guy.
Guess what-men are going to have to prove themselves worthy of not being treated with disdain and name calling. At least as far as I am concerned.
+
So really, I have no problem with making each man I come in contact with proving to me that he isn't worthy of being scorned and hated. I do know some men that I respect and admire. But they proved to me that they were worth my respect and admiration by not being part of the system that continues to oppress women.
Wow. So every guy is guilty until proven innocent? Including little kids that don't know any better and haven't even done anything offensive yet, yet alone know about gender dynamics? Sorry, that's not how I roll when it comes to my own beliefs in feminism. We are done, thread. Have a nice day.
I want to smack almost everybody on this thread.
Just... the sheer fucking RAGE I feel. Several good points have been brought up (misandry does not exist in our society because we never oppressed men for periods of time for masculine traits, misogyny being the root of abuse towards men {they're "weak" or "not manly enough"}, women-only safe places should be for women only, men are NOT exploited through a woman's pregnancy, etc.) but ghsjkghdskjghkjdsgk. I won't discuss every little detail, but here's a few cents I'd like to drop on several comments.
What type of assault are these men you know terrified of reporting, exactly? Because in my world, *women* are terrified of reporting assault because they're not gonna be believed. And if they're terrified because they're gonna get called "weak"... well, news to you: that's misogyny! Basically, these men you know are terrified of being compared to women. I cry a river for them.
I don't know about you, but I find this a really fucking insensitive thing to say about male rape victims. The feelings that come in the aftermath of rape is a lot more complicated than that. What this paragraph reads like to me is, "Men are not oppressed like women, therefore it serves them right if they get raped/molested/abused and are not as important as female victims." FUCK THAT. Rape is bad for anyone, okay?
Male rape is seldom reported because of misogynistic beliefs (misogyny hurts men as well) and far more women are raped than men, and yet the conviction rates are appallingly low including for children.
The part I bolded may be true, but there's one little problem. Rape statistics are not fully accurate BECAUSE rape is under-reported, especially among men. I'm not saying male rape victims enormously dwarf female rape victims in reality, but the number would still be higher than what current surveys or statistics would tell us.
Being an immature asshole is perfectly okay because I'm not going to be ~nice~ or ~less angry~ or ~cuddly~ like the ebil menz expect me to!
Person: I'm fairly sure it's possible to be obviously righteously-angry and assertive without resorting to childish name-calling. There is a line.
Response: *keeps using the "Couldn't you be NICER about it and less angry and quieter and cuddlier and more silent and" icon*
Person: There is a difference between righteous rage and hurting your cause by making you seem just as hateful as the people you are combating.
Response: It's real cute that you seem to think being nice and polite will change things.
GOOD. FUCKING. LORD.
This is SUCH a black-and-white way of thinking. Have the responders considered that there's something called a middle ground? A color called gray? There is a huge fucking difference between being angry and being a childish dick. Being pissed off without resorting to prejudice and name-calling does NOT mean being ~nice~ and ~cuddly~ and willing to let privileged assholes rub their muddy boots in your face. While we're at it, politeness =/= doormat. Thank you very much.
Person: If you're talking about one individual who is doing something offensive, go nuts. Spewing invective referring to all men everywhere, or insulting a man who has not done anything except be a man, doesn't strike me as helpful.
Response: Oh you mean like men do? The whole "all women are sluts" and crap, and it's us that have to "play nice" when the male gender has spent most of human history pushing smaller groups over in the sandbox for their own profit/entertainment.
Annnnnnnnnnnd you're missing the point, responder. If someone's clearly being sexist/racist/homophobic/etc. and swears you out, it's okay to tell them what scumbags they are and call them out on their behavior. It's when you think, "Oh, you're a man/woman, therefore I have the right to treat you like shit even though you haven't said anything bad to me or to anyone else" that's not okay.
I'm pretty fucking sick of hearing all this whinging about how all men aren't like that!! So what? All men benefit from women's oppression, which means that even the men who aren't knowing participants in oppression generally don't feel compelled to try and stop oppression.
Do I have to say what's wrong with that last sentence? A woman that's influenced by misogynistic beliefs and exploits them to oppress other women is just as bad as your oblivious naive white guy.
Guess what-men are going to have to prove themselves worthy of not being treated with disdain and name calling. At least as far as I am concerned.
+
So really, I have no problem with making each man I come in contact with proving to me that he isn't worthy of being scorned and hated. I do know some men that I respect and admire. But they proved to me that they were worth my respect and admiration by not being part of the system that continues to oppress women.
Wow. So every guy is guilty until proven innocent? Including little kids that don't know any better and haven't even done anything offensive yet, yet alone know about gender dynamics? Sorry, that's not how I roll when it comes to my own beliefs in feminism. We are done, thread. Have a nice day.
